Griffin Anderson, CEO of Phi Labs, on the Cosmos Ecosystem, Incentivizing Developers, and Archway | Ep. 211

In an exclusive interview with cryptonews.com, Griffin Anderson, CEO of Phi Labs & Core Contributor to Archway, talks about the Cosmos Ecosystem, Archway protocol, and the importance of creating an engaged developer community. 

About Griffin Anderson

Griffin Anderson is CEO of Phi Labs, a core contributor to Archway, the first layer-1 blockchain featuring developer rewards designed and built directly into the protocol itself. As former Head of Product at Ignite (formerly Tendermint) and former Senior Director of Product Management at ConsenSys, Griffin is well-versed in all aspects of consensus and Layer-1 mechanics. Griffin also was a Founder of the blockchain-powered accounting tools project Balanc3 and a Founder and Board Member of the Accounting Blockchain Coalition.

Griffin Anderson gave a wide-ranging exclusive interview which you can see below, and we are happy for you to use it for publication provided there is a credit to www.cryptonews.com. 

Highlights Of The Interview

• The Archway protocol reshapes how value is created and shared across blockchain ecosystems, opening up a completely new kind of developer-centric economy
• Archway differs from other Layer 1 blockchains by being the only protocol that programmatically rewards developers based on the value they bring to the network
• Dapps can use their earned rewards to give discounts, subsidize gas fees, incentivize voting, and more.
• L1’s should concentrate on rewarding developers instead of just scaling for increased transaction throughput and building a better mousetrap
• Effective developer incentivization will be the key driver to mass Web3 adoption on a macro level
• An active and engaged developer community is the single most important determinant of long-term success for any smart contract platform

 

 

 

Full Transcript Of The Interview

Matt Zahab 
Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the Cryptonews Podcast. We are buzzing as always, and today I’m pumped to have Griffin Anderson on the show the CEO of Phi Labs, a core contributor to Archway, the first Layer-1 Blockchain featuring developer rewards designed and built directly into the protocol itself. His former Head of Product at Ignite, formerly Tendermint, and former Senior Director of Product Management at ConsenSys ever heard of it? Griffin is well versed in all aspects of ConsenSys and Layer-1 mechanics. Griffin also was a Founder of Blockchain Powered Accounting Tools, Project Balanc3, and a Founder and Board Member of the Accounting Blockchain Coalition, and trying to get Grif on the show for a while we finally got him Griffin pumped to have you on man, how you doing? 

Griffin Anderson 
Yeah, good. Thanks, man. Appreciate for having me. I really enjoy your podcast. 

Matt Zahab 
Thank you, man. Appreciate the kind words. You’re in ETHDenver? 

Griffin Anderson 
Yeah, man headed to Denver, just building relationships across the board from the Phi Labs perspective here in Denver. 

Matt Zahab 
Nice. Before we get into Phi, and before we get into Archway and obviously Cosmos, and you know some of the cool stuff that you and the team built at ConsenSys. I love asking our guests their sort of Crypto Inception story. Where did you first learn about Crypto? I assume it was probably Bitcoin related, but walk me through the whole you know, the whole process of you getting into the space and if you have any funny stories along the way, we’d love to hear him as well. 

Griffin Anderson 
Yeah, of course. So my background is kind of engineering and financing as building Fintech apps in the traditional world on Web2.0 mobile apps I should say, and actually my first foray into Crypto really wasn’t on the Bitcoin side. It was actually on the Ethereum side, it was right after the launch of the Ethereum network, and something about the network the idea that you could basically build decentralized apps on this network really just like got me excited and got me interested maybe because I was doing so much mobile app development at the time, and so what happened was, I started reaching out to a lot of the old Ethereum folks, and I got connected to ConsenSys back in late 2015 and was ended up being one of the very first hires over that company right after basically the Ethereum launch, and it was quite a crazy ride, with my time over there in the early days, went through the 2016, like the original DAO hack, if some of the old folks remember that I was on the phone, helping to support and call miners to basically force the chain, which then credit you know Ethereum classic you know, really went through the 2017, crazy Bull Run side of things and, you know helping to open up offices and scaling teams and all kinds of things was really active helping to build enterprise Ethereum Alliance, if you’re familiar with that, and you know just a lot of really go to market stuff at ConsenSys, and when I left us running some pretty large product and engineering teams, that was like open to build out a lot of the infrastructure and tools that I think some people probably are using a little bit right now like, some of the supporting data side of things around Metamask and Impure and the like. So when I left, after about four years, I ended up just like advising and helping a whole bunch of projects in the space and folks I knew and then Tendermint, which is the private software development company behind the Cosmos ecosystem, the original one kind of call me a HUB comm play like a product strategy role. So I ended up getting picked up by Tendermint, and then basically at the same time wanted to basically build my own project, and that’s when we started doing basically come together to basically incubate this idea called Archway, and that’s kind of the journey of how I got it. But lots of war stories been around for a long time. been through it all ups and downs and all the crazy turns that the Crypto provides. 

Matt Zahab 
Yeah, your true vet you had in early 2015. Geez, man, that’s a long time ago. It still baffles me. It always takes four or five months for me to like conceptualize what year we are like in my head. I still think 2022 But like, that’s like eight years ago you are into Crypto. Like that’s pretty crazy. 

Griffin Anderson 
It’s definitely like dog years for sure. 

Matt Zahab 
100%. Another cool thing about your past was Balanc3, and obviously you are also a founder and board member of the accounting blockchain coalition. Is there a specific reason why you love to dabble in sort of the accounting and Fintech space? Like you know, were you a trader as a kid or anything like that? Because it seems like a lot of the things you do are sort of accounting and Fintech focus. 

Griffin Anderson 
Yeah, just Fintech My background is academically and so that was just kind of my foray into those this space. At the time when I was over at ConsenSys. I was playing relationship point with the Big Four accounting firms and consulting firms. So you know, Deloitte UI, PwC, KPMG, and so we were tackling a whole bunch of like financial and accounting issues as well as like their consulting side of their businesses on the enterprise side, we’re very much focused in on a lot of the go to market stuff and like how to get you know, in Ethereum in the blockchain space blockchain built into like enterprises and things like that. In the end, I don’t think there was like much progress, I would say like in terms of like, enterprise blockchain side of things, but well please like kind of a unforeseen impact of all this was like, all the folks that were like, on the enterprise side of things ended up becoming like the biggest Degens going forward, like they all jumped into the public network side of stuff, and now you’d be surprised where they are. They’re at like you know, like the most like, they’re at like Uniswap, they’re at like Aave, they’re at like, it’s so funny that like they started to drink the Kool Aid, and then all jumped ship, and so that was kind of the funny thing, and the unintended result of just like some of the work in the early days is like, it just ended up bringing a whole bunch of people into the space, and so that was kind of cool. 

Matt Zahab 
That is good. What was it like back in the day, like when you were working at ConsenSys working with the big four firms speaking about Crypto like they must have? I mean, I’m sure they probably thought you had foreheads on your shoulders right, like they must. I doubt the receptiveness was present at the time. 

Griffin Anderson 
No, they were trying to basically figure it out in I think most people I mean, we probably don’t even talk about this at all anymore. But like, Ripple was around and they were much more active, the Ripples Project R3 was like the private chain that like everybody was going up against digital asset holding like, we don’t really talk about those firms too much unfortunately. But everybody thought like, private enterprise was the way to go with all this stuff, and it wasn’t very clear that the public networks were going to be the things that were basically going to probably went out in the end, and so from their perspective they were trying to figure it out. But you know, I think the really interesting thing was we were using you know, a lot of the partners at the public accounting firms and consulting firms basically go to market. So every partner has relationships with you know, major CEOs and technology companies in every city around the globe, and so we would use that as like a distribution channel to basically get the word out about Ethereum, and that sort of thing, and so they would go in, and they would have all the local context. So we’d fly into a city you’d have you know, 50 meetings in a week, and you basically had a great opportunity to basically showcase and share what Ethereum was doing in the early days, and just really get to some of the key stakeholders and key decision makers in the space, and allowing those folks probably ended up purchasing the tokens, they definitely a lot of them jumped into the space. So it was just like a really real wild ride, because you would just like fly into a city and you know, connect with all the key stakeholders, whether it was central banks, or government officials or major corporations. It was just really fun and exciting time at the time. Yeah. 

Matt Zahab 
That’s hilarious. Uh, you were an Ethereum spokesman and I guess it was really just the roadshow. 

Griffin Anderson 
A lot of road shows for sure. But it was like setting up offices, you know getting meet ups going on the ground, figuring out community members of drive things it was really like a road show but like bottom up kind of game where like, the focus was definitely like get into a city and figure out how to like get Ethereum going in the space and in that specific city. So definitely bottom up strategy, but we were tackling it from all different kind of angles, a lot of things worked, a lot of things didn’t work, but I mean I would say like Ethereum is here to stay right. So I guess in that sense, a lot of the go to market stuff was a success. 

Matt Zahab 
100%. Griff before we get into Phi Labs, we got to talk about Cosmos. Obviously Phi Labs and Archway are Cosmos friendly and build on Cosmos but with Cosmos on whatever you want to call it. But Cosmos has had sort of a crazy hockey stick growth period over the last we’ll call it a year and a half, two years. Some stats online that I found crazy. This was actually from the Archway Twitter account. There are 1700 plus developers on Cosmos which is the third largest deaf community in the Cryptospace next to Ethereum and Solana full time Cosmos devs have grown 16x since 2018, and the developer community grew by 25% last year alone. That’s pretty darn crazy. I know Archway is doing everything they can everything you guys can to incentivize developers. Before we get into Archway and  Phi Labs, why Cosmos? Why are you so bullish on it? What gets you going about the Cosmos ecosystem? 

Griffin Anderson 
What’s really cool as is the tech I mean, the most people probably don’t understand if you’re coming from that Ethereum space. You know it’s not, Cosmos there’s two things, there’s the Cosmos Hub, which is like a generic chain, kind of like Bitcoin to be quite honest, it doesn’t do much. It’s just like the showcase chain, I’d call it, it’s trying to do some more things. But for right now, it’s pretty generic. But Cosmos is really just at the end of the day, a software development kit to basically go build your own custom chain at the end of the day, and so there’s already pre configured modules and call it Lego pieces that are designed and you can basically put together all these Lego pieces to basically build your own custom chain, your own self sovereign chain in the Cosmos space, and a lot of that stuff has already been worked out in so you can easily build your own custom chain, and what’s so cool is like the ecosystem is so large. So you know, unlike maybe a traditional L-1 or a different space, if you’re building your own custom chain, you have to go you know, basically fun and get in a wallet integrations, you know explorers build, you have to build your community and things like that. But by building in the Cosmos space you have a lot of that ready to go out of the bucket. So you don’t have to build everything completely from scratch, you can basically plug into a full ecosystem of participants that have already been working on these problems for a number of years. So it’s really a great place to basically go in and build your own custom Blockchain using the Cosmos SDK, and then you can innovate on it in a specific way that meets your needs that you’re trying to build and the problem you’re trying to address, and so I think that’s like the advantages of it. The other big thing I would say is IBC. A lot of folks in the Cosmos space really aren’t as bullish on the Cosmos SDK and the technical stack, but they’re really bullish on IBC. IBC is now being integrated with you know, a number of outside Cosmos chains at this point, and Cosmos from a technical perspective seems like they’ve gotten a lot of technical decisions, right? That everybody’s kind of following and trying to catch up to right now at this point, and so I think most of the Cosmos community would say, they’re probably less bullish on the actual SDK and the software development kit, but much more bullish on being like an IBC Inter Blockchain Communication protocol infrastructure layer, than actual SDK which is kind of excited and interesting. 

Matt Zahab 
Can you go into the whole IBC thing a little bit more for me just you know, explain exactly what it is why it’s so important, and why other chains can use it? 

Griffin Anderson 
IBC, an Inter Blockchain Communication protocol is like Cosmos is native bridge infrastructure that makes it really easy to move assets from one protocol to another protocol, seamless with just like signing one transaction in the wallet, which is really cool. It just basically relays messages, the future of IBC gets really interesting. So you can start to do like interchain contract queries and interchain contract calls. So you can basically deploy your contracts or your application on one chain and do another transaction on completely on a different chain, and that’s what really makes this whole thing really kind of exciting, and so you go beyond just like moving assets, but like how do you actually sign transactions through another chain by just using IBC, and the messaging really your systems which is really cool. 

Matt Zahab 
And then you and the team at Phi Labs before we end the Archway, let’s talk about Phi you guys are really giving developers the whole toolkit incentivizing them, giving them all the tools resources, social capital, economic capital, whatever they need to succeed, and build you know, the next blue chip Crypto project. That’s what you and the team are doing. Give me the quick pitch on Archway and Phi Labs. 

Griffin Anderson 
Yeah, so Phi Labs is a software development shop that was spun out of Tendermint, which for your listeners, it’s also sometimes goes by the name of Ignite, and I think the original name was All in Bits, but basically the core software development company at one time behind the Cosmos ecosystem. So we’re spin out of that Phi Labs, whose focuses basically build software tools, etc. But we’re also the core contributors to the Archway protocol, and Archway is a brand new Layer-1 protocol built using the Cosmos technical stack kind of lives in the Cosmos ecosystem, and it’s really there to basically be a home for folks that don’t necessarily want to build their own custom chain but really want to basically build a Dapp similar to what you would be doing on Ethereum or Solana or near or any of the other L-1’s. What makes Archway different though, compared to every other L-1 out there is one is obviously built within the Cosmos ecosystem. It gets the benefits of IBC and all the other ecosystem participants. But the other major thing is the reward system that was developed and worked on for like last two, three years built into the protocol, and so what’s so interesting about the protocol is similar to how we reward a miners or validators for running the network. The Archway protocol in our tweet community does the same thing, but it also rewards the developers that are building the applications on top of the network, and so instead of all the rewatches going to the validators and miners for securing the network, in this particular case, some of the rewards are redirected and shared with a Dapp developers building on top of the network, and that’s done through a couple of different mechanisms, which I can dive into here in a little bit. 

Matt Zahab 
I love that. That’s a, I mean that’s exactly what we need. You know, I find that there’s such a small core of developers on most chains that reap all the benefits, and it’s like, life’s about incentives, right? It’s why we do anything in life and why would you join said chain? Or why would you choose to develop amazing protocols, products and services on said chain, if a handful of people will call it a half a dozen people, or a dozen people are going to reap all the benefits, it just, it doesn’t make a whole lot of sense. 

Griffin Anderson 
Exactly, and so the vision kind of came from like, I was early you know, Ethereum person and said hey, you know I could go build a Dapp on top of Ethereum. But at the end of the day like, I kind of knew who the largest ETH token holders were, and a lot of them were hanging out on beaches around the world, maybe not actively contributing to the protocol in that ecosystem, and they were kind of reaping the benefits of like, all this activity and transactions and everything else you know, happening in Ethereum ecosystem, and they could just kind of hang out and not continue to contribute, and so that just something about that like where the largest ETH token holders basically you know, if you believe in the fad protocol thesis and things like that you know, basically capture you know, most of the value here and these things, and so what the Archway community in the Archway protocols, basically trying to say is like, if you’re a developer and you contributing to the protocol, you should reap some of the rewards, you should reap some of the incentives for basically choosing to build on this protocol, and choosing to contribute to this ecosystem, and that’s what Archways, basically his main point is trying to trying to solve, and so if you’re a developer that either comes on day one or in five years and builds like a really successful Dapp, you should be able to reap you know, some of the incentives from that and some of the rewards from that as well. 

Matt Zahab 
Well said Griff, we got to take a quick break and give a huge shout out to our sponsor of the show, and that is RSTAKING. This podcast is brought to you by RSTAKING the decentralized staking platform which creates its own liquidity pools. The overall liquidity pool of RSTAKING has already raised more than 1 billion USD. There’s a fixed 25% per year on more than 200 tokens and Crypto coins in nine different networks, and rewards get paid very quickly every three hours in USDT or BUSDT tokens since 2019 RSTAKING is considered to be one of the most secured Blockchain companies in the world. The company created a standalone and secure project focus on staking and stability. Speaking of stability RSTAKING offers 25% per year with the possibility of self closing and rewards every three hours in USDT or BUSDT. Everyone can register with RSTAKING and they will receive 10 RHIN tokens free of charge where you can open your first stake. RSTAKING is the platform where everyone will find a suitable token or Crypto coin for themselves. Register now and start studying RSTAKING at rstaking.com that is rstaking.com. Again, that is RSTAKING huge shout out to RSTAKING back to the show with Griff. Archway and Phi Labs again, one of the things that interests me with Archway is how the value is created and shared across Blockchain ecosystems. The one thing that I’m super pumped for and again, I’m not a developer but my developer friends will be very pumped once main net is locked and loaded and ready to go. Rewards are earned and Dapps can be used to give discounts subsidized gas fees, incentivize voting, and more, and I believe I got this right. But there will be multiple different tokens in which developers can receive rewards to, right?

Griffin Anderson 
Yeah, absolutely Matt. So there’s a couple of different ways that we’re going to earn rewards. So they earn them based on usage of a smart contract. So the more usage that their Dapp gets, the more rewards they basically receive, and that can be done in three different ways. One is through we share part of the inflation that normally just goes to like validators or miners and a protocol. The second way is we actually redirect a proportion of the gas fees back to the developer, and the third way is they can have like, basically what is known as contract premiums. It’s like an added fee that they can bake into the gas fee and they can just basically receive that directly, and so through those three ways to basically receive rewards, these rewards all accumulate at a specific address that the developer sets on deployment of their smart contracts, and it could be a personal address, it could be a smart contract address, and then from there it’s completely prometric ball for the developer. They can do whatever they want with the rewards. They could use all those rewards that basically they receive for usage of their smart contracts and redirect them to like a DAO for instance, or they could use it to boost liquidity pools, or they could redirect it to their Governance token holders, they could use it to basically reward the core contributors to that Dapp. The possibilities and use cases are completely kind of endless here in terms of all the different things that a developer can use with those rewards, and so on one hand, they might use it to just benefit the core contributors of the Dapp team or the protocol. But it’s very much possible that they use the rewards in a way that basically benefits the broader community, but gives back to like the people that are using the protocol the most, and so that’s kind of really exciting and what that means is like now what we’re doing is we’re unlocking all kinds of different use cases and models that have never been done before. DeFi kind of blew up because of Governance tokens, NFTs have kind of blown up because folks could sell NFTs you know, what are the use cases and the possibilities that are now available to you when you just basically earn a steady stream of rewards based on usage of your smart contracts, and that’s what’s really cool and that’s what’s really going to unlock all kinds of new Dapps and hopefully a whole new kinds of verticals that weren’t, we didn’t see possible beyond just DeFi and NFTs. 

Matt Zahab 
So you and the team are big believers, that effective developer incentivization will literally be like the sort of the key driver to Web3 mass adoption on the macro level. You guys like that’s your thesis point kind of thing? 

Griffin Anderson 
Yeah, we think it’s a sustainable way right? So like I think, you know DeFi is definitely blown up because of like Governance tokens. But the challenge with that is like, you only have 100% of tokens, and once they’re all distributed now you have to like really no way to replenish the Governance tokens, right? So when we get into like bear markets or downturns like this, it’s really difficult for teams to continue to operate and build better and better versions of their protocol when they may have like doled out their whole treasury right? And they don’t have anything like leftover or saved and things like that, and this is a little bit more of like a sustainable means to basically continue to iterate continue to build better products continue to build better versions of their Dapp you know, in a sustainable way that doesn’t just necessarily mean that they have to go out and basically ask for grants every six months or every year, or that they have to basically, you know beg the foundation for that stuff or that they necessarily have to go out, and you know launch a Governance token, and then once it’s all doled out you know, how do they replenish that? How do they keep this and build this in a sustainable way and so that’s really like our thesis on some of this stuff. What’s also really cool is like just the possibilities of the use cases. So for instance, if you were to launch a stable coin on top of Archway, every time you’re stable coin got used in like a DeFi product or is moved to transaction, your smart contracts get rewarded. So now all of a sudden, there’s a business model for basically stable coin issuers. Same thing goes for like Oracle systems. So now you can start to like, reward off chain asset issuers, off chain services, things like that where they didn’t really necessarily have a way to basically earn rewards on chain, they now do it through the Archway protocol, which makes it really interesting, and so hopefully what this does is like open up all kinds of new use cases and things like that, it makes it like a more sustainable, fair model for developers all around the globes, and I would say one last thing to just kind of mention there. Like I think the other challenge, like with grant programs and things like that it’s like, if you don’t know the key people at the foundation, or you’re not in you know, in a major city around the globe that has access to venture capital and things like that, you’re gonna feel pretty disenfranchised, because it’s like it’s very much a relationship game, you know you could be anywhere in the world and if you deployed a smart contract to Archway even if it just like earned a few transactions, you can start getting some rewards for that and that might be enough to like, you know, cover your daily costs, things like that and so in that way you can like basically iterate and build on that app, and so I think this is like more of a fairer way for like developers to basically contribute to a protocol in a way that is a little bit more sustainable and little bit more equitable across the world. 

Matt Zahab 
Griff you brought up building relationships a bunch of times, and I absolutely love that. I feel like in Crypto, it’s perhaps a little harder to build relationships than other industries. Just because we’re sort of so decentralized as a whole yeah, there’s a couple of hubs you have your Miami and Dubai. But for the most part, we’re pretty darn spread out and there’s really not that many sort of blue chip marquee events you have your you know, Bitcoin Miami and your ETHDenver’s and you know you’re Solana but you’re Solana and I want to say Lisbon, but like there really isn’t that many opportunities. You have brought this up many times. I’d love if you could pass along a couple tips best practices, like you know, things that you wish perhaps you did differently or things that you did really well. You have an incredible rolodex in the space. How would you go about building relationships in Crypto? 

Griffin Anderson 
Probably the best thing and the best way to do it is probably to through forums. I think a Ben says that is definitely very much helpful attending months events attending certain events in a specific community, you have to attend, you know 2 3 4 events that are kind of blue chip, then you start to start to see the same people over and over again, and that really helps in building community. The other way I would say is like the ground game or the roadshow, which we kind of mentioned before that like, it gets real expensive, but you have to kind of fly into a city and meet a lot of the key stakeholders, you have to participate in the local meetups and the local events. But that’s a really great way to basically meet key stakeholders within a community you kind of can navigate and then you know hopefully, you can build some relationships that will then help you like basically intro you to other folks, even as long as I’ve been in Crypto, like I probably don’t have enough relationships in the space, we have, you know great folks on the team at Phi Labs and within the cosmos space that are that are well connected. But you know there’s just so many new people coming in to Crypto in general that you have to just, you know just consistently be networking and connecting here, but I hope Archway can take out some that relationship piece of it a little bit like hopefully, like you can just focus on building a really good Dapp and a really good product and then you can grow it from there, and that’s the hope here is you don’t have to build those relationships and sincerely to be successful. 

Matt Zahab 
Well said it’s very true. Griff this has been an absolute treat. We’re getting a little tight for time here and we’ll wrap up soon we always have a segment on the show called the hot take factory where you and I get our shit kicked boots on. Jumping the hot take factory and let a couple of hot takes fly some things that only Griffin believes in whereas most other people do not doesn’t have to be Crypto, Blockchain, finance related can be anything across the board, but give us a couple of Griff hot takes before you go. 

Griffin Anderson 
Here’s a good one. In order to survive as a founder or startup the key is sustainability and surviving through a bear market that’s the key to based on your success. So I think a lot of folks and projects are probably having a really tough time right now. But I mean the key here is to like basically buckle down and get through this bear market no matter how long it takes two years, a year, three years, four years but the key to winning is basically just survive and I think just being in the space so long. You know the projects that basically barely made it through the last bear market in 2018 are some of the biggest projects around today and they’re key to success was just surviving through it and so that’s maybe one of the hot takes I would take away from all this Matt is just buckle down and try to survive through it. 

Matt Zahab 
Just keep bitling yeah bear market any tips for it’s tough though you know when there’s no heck we talked about incentives all podcast long when you don’t get any dopamine hits and you don’t get any of that gratification and you don’t get any oorah and at the end of the day incentives for years until that bull market comes and then everything you work for just hits that hockey stick growth and the rock chip takes off like you’ve built companies in the bear market before what any tips or piece of advice or tidbits that you’d pass along for us. 

Griffin Anderson 
Just keep building just keep like you said just keep building here through it all everyone will shine in the sun I guess and they’ll get their light and so just you know it’s going to come in different waves. Crypto just like is constantly moving to the greatest next thing and so if you haven’t really exploded yet or had that like hockey stick type growth yet that’s okay just keep building keep surviving and you’ll get your time in the sun like it will come it just it will take a while. That’s all. 

Matt Zahab 
Love that. Griff thank you so much for coming on man, this has been a treat. Before you go can you please let our listeners know where they can find you Phi Labs and Archways online and on socials. 

Griffin Anderson 
Yeah Phi Labs the software development company can be found at philabs.xyz and then I would say if you’re interested in getting involved in the Archway community that’s growing pretty fast you can go to the website archway.io or follow the Twitter handle @archwayHQ from there you can find all kinds of leagues and get involved in Discord and the rest of the community out there. 

Matt Zahab 
Amazing. Griff thanks again man pumped for round two down the road wishing you and the team all the best, and hopefully I can meet you in person one day as well. 

Griffin Anderson 
Yeah, appreciate it. Thanks, Matt for having me on. Really appreciate it. 

Matt Zahab 
Folks what a great episode with Griffin Anderson dropping knowledge bombs left, right and center. If you are a dev and want to get incentivized and start building on and with one of the best ecosystems in Cosmos do go check out Archway do go check out Phi Labs as always, I will include everything in the show notes. If you guys enjoyed this one I hope you did please do subscribe. It would mean the world to my team and I. To the team love you guys thank you so much for everything. Justas you’re the best editor appreciate all your hard work and to the listeners love you guys keep on growing those bags. Keep on staying healthy, wealthy and happy. We’ll talk soon. Bye for now.