Bitrefill's Sergej Kotliar on Living on Crypto
In this episode of Cryptonews Podcast, Matt Zahab interviews Sergej Kotliar, CEO of Bitrefill, an e-commerce company that enables individuals to purchase gift cards, mobile refills, and other goods via the Lightning Network. They talk about Sweden startup ecosystem, the business of Bitrefill, and how to live solely on crypto.
0:37 Sweden and Hockey
1:54 Sweden's startup ecosystem
10:09 Phone refills
11:33 Challenges of being in over 170 countries
12:51 Business model
14:11 Raising money in the crypto industry
17:25 Customer spending habits
19:34 Declaring crypto holdings
21:39 Company culture
24:20 Advice to new entrepreneurs and startups
29:45 Importance of building in public
31:26 Future of Bitrefill
33:10 DeFi and NFT hot takes
40:18 Bitcoin and Ethereum price predictions
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Matt Zahab: 0:08
Folks, today's guest is the founder and CEO of the world's largest crypto only e commerce site. If you've ever dreamed of gassing fiat and living only on crypto, this gentleman and his team have the solution for you. From Stockholm, Sweden, I am pleased to introduce to the cryptonews podcast. Sergej Kotliar. Sergej, welcome to the show.
Thank you much for lovely intro.
Coming from Sweden, and myself being an absolute diehard hockey fan growing up, I admired tons of Swedes still do. You have Nick Lindstrom, you have Zetterberg, you have the captain of my beloved Toronto Maple Leafs. Mattson, Dean, tell me you're a hockey fan with a name like Sergej growing up in Sweden.
Well, yeah, and was and then like, that's an age like mine. That makes me a robotics man. Follow quite fashions as a kid. I remember sitting up when I was like 11 years old, like staying up all night to watch the Stanley Cup game. So as like, as it was, actually, because sometimes we didn't have the premium channels that will show the NHL games and was middle of the night. And so the channels that we show sports also the channel for show porn. Stay up and watch blurry after the porn there was a hockey games.
Oh, I love it.
I haven't haven't followed my hockey interests too much in the past the past years, I think.
What a story kicked that off, especially being a Red Wings fan. Being a Red Wings fan, at least a good team to follow. I believe you guys won what five cups in 15 or 20 years? Yeah, not too bad. But going right into Sweden, I was fortunate enough to visit Stockholm about three to four years ago, just an absolutely stunning city. So cool. And being from Canada, the cold really didn't bother me at all. I believe it's nicer weather than Toronto to which is a treat. You and your company Bitrefill currently reside in Stockholm and there are a lot of crypto startups and just startups in general, really buzzing in Stockholm, and really making some moves. I'd love if you could tell me a little bit more about the startup ecosystem in Stockholm.
Well, here in Sweden, we pride ourselves as being in Silicon Valley. As someone who has been to the actual Silicon Valley, I know that that's not entirely the case. But historically, Sweden has produced a couple of per capita, many successful startups, Spotify, and corn and so on. And so yeah, I think it's a good environment. People have been building tech here for a while. So, and in terms of crypto, not that much activity here, unfortunately. We have a couple of exchange brokerage companies, as you have in most countries and a couple of unspecified blockchain technology projects and stuff like that. But yeah, lately, actually, we've seen a lot more stuff from coming out of Norway, which is very unexpected, and they're not traditionally known as a startup type place.
That's interesting. Let's let's go right into Bitrefill, love the name, by the way, if you could tell our audience a little bit about how it started when it was founded back in 2014. I know there's a really interesting story behind that. But to begin, how did you choose the name Bitrefill?
Well, so the original version of Bitrefill in the original configuration list, you can buy refill paper phones, right. And so there's different wordings for that, and you know, sometimes it's called top ups or recharge, so on refillable, so, I think, you know, in American English refill is one of the more common I should ever international is a little bit more, I don't know, it was just sort of catch and rolled off the tongue reasonably well. It was a company that work to Bitcoin to find resources and that. It went and with this came up a couple of times if we should change it or something in terms of our broader focus so on but, I don't know, we'll stick to our roots and I think with everything that we do, refilling your things with Bitcoin is still what we do. So it's very, very apt.
I think the name is great personally. It definitely does the trick. But just about Bitrefill in general, I love the slogan, one of the best slogans out there is very simple three words live on crypto. And it's so crazy to think that when you guys had this vision, about six, seven years ago, to live on crypto, people must have thought you were absolutely out to lunch, you were living in space or something. But now there are so many digital nomads. And there are places around the world where you can literally do exactly that and live on crypto and you've created a multitude of products and services that pretty much allow anyone in the world to live on crypto in a much easier fashion. And that is done through a catalogue of gift cards, prepaid mobile refills, and lightning networking services that can be purchased using Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies on your platform. Bitrefill, can you tell me a little bit more about how the company founded and what you guys are up to today?
Yeah, sure. So founded in late 2014 as a first experiment, I think but always had the North Star of enabling this thing that we have, the Bitcoin thing, and I think that I mean, big picture, today, in most countries, where there is exchanges, and so on, and people just, you know, they buy their bitcoins on exchange, and they sit on them, and they sell them on the exchange, and sort of, like, a lot of the value gets lost. Sometimes talk about that, hey, imagine if we had all of the technology today and somebody makes an email, and somebody would like write a letter on paper, take a snap a picture with the phone of the paper, email, the picture printed on the other side, like, it's email, there's some benefits, but many other benefits are kind of lost. Right? And there's a ton of that in the crypto world in that all the real benefits and the freedom and so on, only start materializing once there is an economy within the crypto layer so that people can keep their money in crypto and buy stuff with it and get paid and sort of cut the cord basically with the incumbent systems in a very not unlike way. I don't know if you remember when the online streaming services just started coming out and there was a community called cord cutters, which was about people that cut the cord to their cable to their TV and they would only have the Netflix's, right? And it was controversial and outrageous at the time. Like why would you not have your cable like crazy? How are you gonna watch your hockey? And then overtime now it's like somebody has cable actual cable that sounds weird. I don't know anybody who has cable like yet most people don't even plug in their TV, other than to their Apple TV or whatnot.
It's like having a house phone.
Right. And, and so exactly. And so that's kind of what we want to achieve with Bitrefill, was touching that for crypto to be able to make the move and to either cut the cord or at least to sort of at least, you know have the freedom not needing it as much.
It's such a cool concept. If you do want to use it I highly recommend taking a quick peek and it's a very simple, easy, beautiful site to use and very easy to get hooked on. And you can go through these flows of literally taking fiat flushing it down the toilet and never needing to use it again. Put all your feet into bitcoin or $ETH Litecoin or Heck, even Dogecoin like Elon musk and you can use crypto to purchase gift cards from literally the world's most popular brands. Amazon, eBay, Apple Walmart, you want to get a phone hack, snag Apple gift card, buy a new phone, you want to take a vacation? Snag an Airbnb or a Delta Airlines gift card. Delta will get you there Airbnb will house Yeah, are you hungry? Jump on Uber Eats grubhub I absolutely love that. I'm a big Chipotle guy. I would be mucking those all day long. And it's so cool. One of the more interesting aspects that you guys have intertwined is in today's day and age, all this works. Yes, the Airbnb, the Delta, the grubhub. It's all great. But without a phone plan, you're toast. And you and the team at Bitrefill have fixed that by enabling your customers to purchase prepaid phones, data, phone codes and other related phone bundles. Tell me more about that.
Yeah, well. And I think you said it pretty well. Like, I mean, our goal is anything that is digital and payable, we should have it as a product on our site. And the phone refills are what got us started in the beginning. And we had more emerging markets focus with those things. And it's still the case that in many countries, that phone refill through Bitrefill is the only thing that you can actually buy with Bitcoin in that country. And we're working on fixing that as well. But it's a start, right. And it's a cool thing, that it's a product that everybody has and everybody uses all over the world. And there's more people in the world that have a phone, and there's people that have a toothbrush
And its true. And the vast majority of these phones are prepared and can be refilled through Bitrefill. So, and doesn't really require much from the customer either go in and type in the phone number and click click, click, and it's done.
So being in over 170 countries and partnering with over 1600 businesses, there must be some crazy hurdles or roadblocks that you have to jump through to make this happen.
Yeah, I mean, we haven't partnered with each of those companies individually, like we use middlemen, providers, and so on. But we've built out, I think, a pretty good network of products and we're looking forward to expanding that quite significantly during this year, as well, and adding more gift cards, and especially a couple of new countries, and also to broaden our coverage in Europe coming up. And that's I mean, you know, it's a big machine on the back side of the company, like we have business development team and engineering efforts to make all these integrations and financial treasury, you know, figuring out how to send money to all of these, suppliers and so on. There's a lot of it looks simple in the end, but there's a lot of effort going into it, making it all work.
Sergej, as CEO and founder of Bitrefill, you wear many different hats, there are many different roles. Was there ever a moment in time where you thought the business model might not work?
Yeah, sure. And I think to some extent, we're still figuring it out. In terms of it, we're trying to achieve something that nobody has achieved, like building a successful business in the transactional cryptocurrency space. And it's hard. And it's one thing getting a couple of core fans, but getting it to grow broader is tough. And it's an ongoing effort especially like, how the markets are packaged, and so on. And so yeah, there's been, for sure, doubt, and so on and these things, the more difficult something is, the harder it is to follow.
Well said. Clearly the business model is on a roll, and people do indeed want to live on crypto. That's why it's worked and that's why it continues to work. You've also had a lot of success with investors. You mentioned spending some time in Silicon Valley in beautiful San Fran, and have had a pretty darn good track record with VC fundraising. Quick question about the whole pitching aspect back in the day, I guess when you'd be in a boardroom and now being in COVID, pitching via zoom. What are your key points? And how do you go about selling those venture capitalists or P firms?
Yeah, that's a good question. And it's always easier when the investor themselves are either a customer or in the target audience, let's say. And one thing that I've learned is like, there is entire classes of investors that I don't want to talk to anymore, including quite a few of the Silicon Valley ones because I mean, if you don't get why people would want to cut the cord and start living on crypto and so on, then it's just too hard. It's too hard to get them to believe into buy in and so on. So I've gotten, I think, better at figuring out which ones to spend time with and trying to, you know, trying to
Attack. Who to get in bed with. Who to schmooze.
Well, the interesting thing is like, the worst investor isn't the one that doesn't know right away, right? The worst investor is the one that takes a lot of your time and dances.
Strings you along
Right? So it's good to, I don't know how to say that in English, but like, water divider, like you introduce something very early on in the pitch, like, hey, we hold some of our balance sheets and Bitcoin.
Handling objections. You let him know, right off the bat. These are the objections you might find. And to be honest with you, if you want to jump in bed with us. Great, let's get naked and if not go fly a kite.
Right, exactly. Yeah, exactly. So that's what I find is like the holding bitcoins on balance, it is not seen as controversial these days now that Tesla is doing it, but it was definitely controversial up until six months ago. Yeah, I would say. So it was one of those things that you can you can introduce, and then you know, you can sort of quickly take the a direction and to the right point. But I mean, luckily, I think over the years, we get to a point where we're a more of a known entity, and investors have in fact used our service in different ways. And usually that's the best semester like, from then on. They say I use your service here and here. And then you have a common ground. You don't need to explain everything in the same way that you would need to do so kind of raises the conversation.
I want to talk about Bitrefill users. Could you publicly tell me the MVP, or the most valuable user, the MVU of Bitrefill? Is there a gentleman or a lady around the world who is absolutely bawling out living in the nicest Airbnbs flying first class on Delta buying crazy shit on Amazon? Do you have any customers who have literally full on spend hundreds of 1000s or millions of dollars a year and live their whole lives off Bitrefill?
I don't know if that level of money but yeah, we definitely have customers that have bought expensive things and travel is one of those things. Yeah we see those and we tried to, you know, work with amount limits and so on. We reach out to customers, if they're hitting limits, both for regulatory reasons, but also for learning about customers and so on. And so we have a couple of stories, I don't know. And we also have customers that are more of a b2b kind of so on and so they will rack up large amounts. But yeah, I think I mean, we definitely have a class of customers that are people that are like just traveling the world and leaving their babies and hotels, and so on, that have told us that, hey, there's been a couple of also like attempts by journalists, like, Hey, can I live on Bitcoin for a month? And some of them are like, yeah, and ended up just buying everything in between, like ordering all my food, through the Uber Eats and doordash and whatnot, and so on. There's still no good way for paying traditional rent, unfortunately. So if you don't want to live in airbnb or hotel room then right now, we don't have enough time for that.
In due time, though, especially as governments and regulators around the world keep hacking down and setting more rules and regulations in regards to crypto and the whole tax issues with that. It's seems like as more people get into crypto and as more early adopters of crypto as their bags continue to grow and grow and grow, people are going to need to find a way to not declare their crypto holdings. And off the record, this seems like a lovely way to do that, where you can not have to declare it and just keep buying gift cards that happens all the time in real life with Fiat, to gift cards, where if you don't want to declare, you know, say your USD from whatever transaction or whatever it may be, you buy gift cards, and you can live off those. Have you guys ran into any problems with that?
Well, I mean, we encourage our customers to pay their taxes as do we and yeah, I mean, that is an aspect of privacy is that's one of the things that people can use privacy for is things. And in many countries, I don't think that that's the primary driver for our customers. I think there's other things and, frankly, convenience, maybe some extent privacy, and it will still live in a world where I mean, just the other day, I was helping an acquaintance realize some Bitcoin gains and you know, person totally want to do the right thing in every way. And, hey, the bank doesn't allow payments from crypto companies and this and that. And so, you know, the system just makes it hard in so many ways, and that's why it's nice to not need to rely on that at all.
No, it's 100% true there. Going back to to the company, the employees, you've hired some incredible employees have incredible reviews on companies like angellist and indeed. Now, Bitrefill offers free lunches, catered stuff, tons of perks, awesome, very awesome culture. What's the plan for the office in regards to the shit show that COVID has brought upon us as COVID fizzles down and as the world returns to better days is the plan to go back to the office or unit stay fully remote?
Well, we have an office in Stockholm, but the team is spread out. So out of 30 people, there's, I think seven or eight of us in the office, and most of us are not there every day anyway. So corona stuff hasn't been a big interruption for us, other than, you know, people being scared and sick and so on. But in terms of working we're remote first, and we've learned to work across time zones, and so on. So I think we're going to continue with that. And it makes us able to recruit the best people and the most motivated people where we're building the best conversion. And so people that that join us come to participate in that. And so, you know, we've never had any issues in terms of motivation, and so on, even in terms of like values, conflicts, and so on, that sometimes happen in companies, we have a pretty good. Everybody's pretty clear on whatever we're trying to achieve, and so on the mood is pretty good. We think when you're, I don't know, if it's just that we're hiring exceptionally good people on a human level, I think so. But I'm obviously biased. Maybe it's also from working remotely, that people aren't in each other's face so much. And so when we actually do meet up. It used to be every six months. Now we have a backlog on that front because of travel restrictions. And the atmosphere is everybody who's seen one of our galleries say that it's so rare to see a company atmosphere, that positive and engaging group of people camaraderie.
Top notch. Any advice to new entrepreneurs and crypto startups in regards to succeeding with the multiple timezone aspect?
It is tough. You need to have the right amount of meetings, not too few, not too many and navigate that. Sometimes, you know, schedule things for you know, the conversations that will happen in an office. That doesn't happen if you need to call somebody on a call right? And figure out ways of having down time around meetings or just calls for TGI F you know, I've tried a lot of different things and I think the weirdest thing is like we've tried to do t g i f. And it's problematic because like when it's after work European time and we're having a drink, and it's like 9am for the US West Coast people.
There's nothing wrong with that. Little mimosa or Caesar never heard anybody.
Yeah, but they're also expected to work that day, right? Drunken programming. No, but I mean, it's important to figure out how to socialize and so.
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Astronaut is sometimes referred to as cryptonaut. But I mean, it's part of the thing that you don't see what the astronaut looks like, behind the visor. Right? So there's no issues of is it you know, is it a man or woman or what skin color does it have or is it a person. And I think the astronaut came out soon we're experimenting with different ad concepts with our designer, Jason Benjamin. And something about it just stuck. Yeah, I think it speaks more elegantly to the crypto user in that, you know, the astronaut has a suit on is in space is living in the future. But it's also Tony's couch filtering. Right. And I think that it speaks to the identity of the crypto users that we are at the same time, you know, we're at the same time living in the future, but also in the present. Right. And we're like, suited up for it to go but also.
Yeah, but also like, things don't really work. Like it's clunky sitting in the astronaut suit on your couch, right. And so, you know, cryptos, often like that. And so I think it speaks quite well to the to the audience. And so we've gone on with it, and we're going to do even more of that. It's pretty cool. It's becoming like Ronald McDonald of Bitrefill.
It is. So just for those who don't know, the astronaut is like the official mascot of Bitrefill. It's powerful. It's unique. Like Sergej was saying it has the astronauts suit on it has the big bubble visor, just looks like a big ladder lass and fully decked out. It's just very clean, and extremely powerful. One of the things you brought up was Jason Benjamin, your lead designer. As a company you as a massive, on going in public which I love. You often show a lot of yours, I guess secrets may be the right word, but I think it was a couple of weeks ago, Jason did a live stream on YouTube walking the audience through his design process, which again, most companies don't do that. How important do you think it is to build in public?
I think it is important, I think everything in the crypto space everything boils down to trust, right? The trust factor is more important than, you know, how much does it cost? What features does it have? The main thing is, like, Can I trust this is to say this, I mean, even coin base's landing page, there's going to be a big section of like, this is why you should trust us, you know, and even is the biggest company in the space, you know, everybody needs to convey that. And that's why building a brand is important. And that's why it's anything that we can do. And transparency is important. So people can say, hey, this or there's real people here, they're doing real things, they're trying their best. And you know, sometimes they do something good, and then we can participate in the happiness sometimes they fuck up. And then we can tell them hopefully forgive them, and so on. And so I think it is valuable and I think it's something we're going to be doing quite a bit more of
Tell me, before we jump into some of the fun stuff like DeFi, NFTs, Bitcoin and a couple of your hot takes, which I'm dying to get into. Tell me about the next steps in the future Bitrefill?
Lots of stuff, lots of stuff lined up. And first of all, just adding a bunch of new products, more gift cards, more things to buy. Other solutions that are a little bit in the regulated side and more and more looking at figuring out how to to get to pay bills, for example, straight from Bitrefill, and generally you know, tie the whole experience together better and build that lightning network and build out transactional use cases figuring out how we can be, how we can facilitate the other side. Like if we are the spending side of the circular economy then there is another side where you know people have earnings and in Bitcoin or in crypto and, and bionics I don't mean people getting a cash back from like an affiliate network for buying something online. I mean, like literally, you know, Hey, can I make you earn a living by doing work or what have you. Trying to get this economy circulating and doing what we can to facilitate that.
That's awesome. Tell me about your hot takes. I know you have a couple awesome hot takes I can see you
I have a never ending amount
I was gonna say I can see you blushing here you have some awesome hot takes on DeFi and NFTs. I'm just gonna let you dance. The floor is yours. Let's hear him.
That was a very broad question. I mean, the essence of what made Bitcoin successful is that there is a proof of work and difficult adjustments in mining and so on, meaning that nobody got their bitcoins for free. Right? So when somebody mined their bitcoins, they join the network at a cost, you know, it doesn't. Whereas the opposite is if somebody creates something in concept, this shall be money, and this will be a currency and then they sell it to people. And then yeah, it's pretty good business model. Right? I mean, it's literally being the bank in monopoly. And we've had many iterations of that, and I think NFTs or maybe the latest. The thing is with these things is that it's a speculative game right in which, you could call crypto as a whole for our type of gambling, right? Because it is a game, you collect these different tokens and they go up and down the value and the goal is to increase the total value of this tokens.
It's a big old video game.
Right. Yeah, but it's a game for real money. Yeah, and it's often problematic. Yeah, I think in that there is these two sides of crypto, which is that, you know, creating financial freedom and you can be your own bank and cut the cord, and so on and sub money and inflation resistance and all these things, right. But also, your entry point to this ecosystem is going to be a casino in which gets paid a commission, if they can get you to trade tokens for other kinds of tokens, they go up and down in value, and the more you trade, the more they make. So we kind of suck people in sometimes for the wrong reasons. Or we suck them in for the right reasons and then convert to the wrong reasons. And build this gambling economy and you know, I don't know, really what to say about it. I think there's been a lot of, historically there's been a lot of scams. I think there's still scams, this point we're post scam, right, when those things that are, you know, you can argue like is an NFT a scam? Well, it's very clearly is what it is. It's a picture of a tweet, you know, who can say that you got scammed if you paid money to buy a picture of a tweet. It's kind of clear that a picture of a tweet is a picture of a tweet and if you want to pay money for it, maybe you can. There are certain things that are, that maybe people that are new to the space don't always realize, right? Like, for example, it's often the same money that goes in circles, right? So you guessed it, and given that the system is decentralized, it's also hard to know, like, yeah, somebody creates a token and sells those tokens for x millions. But how do you know that it wasn't themselves buying those tokens for those millions. Because remember, if you should have, you know, and this was someone else posting on Twitter that I'm paraphrasing, that's like, imagine you have a million dollars worth of Ether, and you're issuing a token and then use that million dollar to buy your own token, then you have a million dollars, and you also have tokens that are now worth a million dollars. Right? So you can sell them at a discount, and then suddenly, you sort of creating value in them very often, somebody ends up holding the metaphorical bag, so to speak. And I think that's often unfortunate with scams, something that people should be aware of. That said, certain things, I think, reach certain escape velocity as well. Ethereum being one such example that's raised a prominent ICO, that's taking a lot of money, but this point has been six years and I don't know of anybody who considers themselves to have been scammed by Ethereum.
So is it... You know, becomes a victimless scam, let's say and then at that point, is that a scam if everybody's happy? And how long can it go on for and so on. And so yeah, NFTs I don't know, that sounds to me, like, rich people stuff. I don't know if it's more unreasonable to buy buy a picture of a tweet than it is to buy whatever else people buy, for lots of money, right? The Underwear that Michael Jordan wore today, or what have you. So I don't know. The thing with all of this is that they're often sold to people as if they were investments, right? So if you're, if you're a hockey guy, maybe you collected hockey cards, some points I did. I have a hockey card collection that I, at the time, you heard stories about, oh, someone who had the hockey cards from the 70s or 60s and they're now worth this and that much. And that's great. And probably our hockey cards one day are going to be worth a lot as well. Guess what, like it's been, or is it now 25 years since I was in middle school, I actually check my hockey cards, they're not for sale. And I had a massive collection, Magic the Gathering cards, same thing. And so you shouldn't, you know If you want to play with hockey cards because you like hockey cars, that's great, but if you're if you're buying them as an investment, then it might not turn out as good as you would have thought.
Do your research folks. Sergej, this has been incredible. I've had a blast speaking with you. A couple more questions before we let you go. What will happen first Bitcoin to 100k or $ETH to 5k.
I'm going to check how much it is.
Doubling. Well, yeah, probably Bitcoin is a shorter trip. And I think that Ether is right now being challenged. Not always and so I would definitely say Bitcoin.
And last question where can our audience find you on socials, yourself and Bitrefill?
Yeah, I mean, if you type in Bitrefill the good things will show up in most channels. My username is at ziggamon. I think if you miss type it it's gonna come after or just Patrice and Sergej.
And what ziggamon mean?
It's a nickname I briefly had as a teenager that became my internet handle. A ziggamon is the Digimon man with worstest taste in music. Sick. It was like a brief inside joke and then I used it on a website and it was catchy. It's kind of stuck with me.
Nice. That's awesome. Sergej, this was a treat. Really appreciate you coming on. Really big fan your company. Sky is the limit, moon is the limit for you guys. Love the brand love the astronaut love the team love the concept. Was a pleasure. Thank you and all the best. Have a good one.
Thank you so much, Matt. Thank you.
Folks. Hope you enjoyed listening to this episode. This was Sergej from Bitrefill. You can find them on socials. I will post everything in the show notes and on our website cryptonews.com will also be on our daily newsletter and at our socials as well at cryptonews. Hope you enjoyed listening to this. If you'd like to help us out, please subscribe. We'd love if you did that. Wishing you all the best and have a wonderful day. Thanks again.