Alex Shevchenko, CEO of Aurora Labs, on EVMs, $NEAR, and Uniting Blockchain Ecosystems | Ep. 249
In an exclusive interview with cryptonews.com, Alex Shevchenko, CEO of Aurora Labs, talks about building the biggest L2 on Near Foundation, Aurora’s customized enterprise blockchain solution, and frictionless blockchain experiences for developers.
About Alex Shevchenko
Alex Shevchenko is the CEO of Aurora Labs, a bridge and EVM scaling solution for Ethereum built on top of NEAR Protocol as a smart contract. Alex has a Ph.D. in physics & math, has been an entrepreneur and blockchain enthusiast since 2015, and developed Bitfury’s Exonum, a blockchain-as-a-service solution.
Alex Shevchenko gave a wide-ranging exclusive interview which you can see below, and we are happy for you to use it for publication, provided there is a credit to www.cryptonews.com.
Highlights Of The Interview
- Building the Biggest L2 on Near Foundation (1/2 of Near’s TVL comes from Aurora)
- Aurora’s Customized Enterprise Blockchain Solution
- Aurora’s Native Wallet
- Frictionless Blockchain Experience for Developers
- EVM gas vs. Near gas on Aurora
Full Transcript Of The Interview
Matt Zahab
Ladies and gentlemen, welcome back to the Cryptonews Podcast. We’re buzzing as always, and I’m super pumped to have today’s guest on the show, Alex Shevchenko the CEO of Aurora Labs, a bridge and EVM scaling solution for Ethereum built on top of the NEAR Protocol as a smart contract. Alex has a PhD in physics and math, has been an entrepreneur and blockchain enthusiast since 2015, and developed Bitfury’s Exonum blockchain as a service solution. It’s been a hot minute. Pumped to have you on, Alex welcome to the show, my friend.
Alex Shevchenko
Hello, Matt. Thanks for having me here.
Matt Zahab
Pumped to have you on, man. You’re in Lisbon right? now. How much of a treat is that city? I absolutely love that place.
Alex Shevchenko
It’s pretty nice. A little bit too hot as for me as a Ukrainian, but well, I can bear with it. This is something like a European California. It has similar wipes. I would say a little bit closer to Los Angeles than to San Francisco. And maybe it is good these days.
Matt Zahab
Yeah, I haven’t been in a while, but pretty big crypto community as well in Lisbon. It seems like Lisbon’s swallowing up a lot of talent.
Alex Shevchenko
Absolutely. With the war breakout in Ukraine, my estimated approximately half of Ukrainian crypto scene was relocated to Lisbon. There are two reasons for this. The first one is just a pretty good climate here, so it is just a nice place to live. And the second one is that the crypto taxation is pretty generous here. There is no capital gains on crypto. The only taxes that you need to pay with crypto is they are applicable only when you’re switching into Fiat, which means that’s a pretty nice place to be if you’re in crypto space.
Matt Zahab
Yeah, that’s huge. Jeez, I might need to take the move over there. I bet you a bunch of Canadians have also jumped ship and gone over as well. Hey, enough about Lisbon. No free ads. The tourism bureau of Portugal owes me a free trip after how many times I’ve pumped Lisbon, Lagos, and Porto’s tires on the show. So if anyone from Portugal is listening, hit up your boy and send me a PJ, and I’ll be jumping over there. But let’s jump right into Aurora here. Why did you and the team decide to build Aurora? It seems like there’s a myriad of different reasons and solutions that you guys are currently providing, but what was sort of the big main ticket for why you and the team started Aurora?
Alex Shevchenko
So the idea was not coming from inside of the team? Actually, it was the idea of my schoolmate, Illia Polosukhin, who is the CEO of NEAR, or the development part of NEAR. In 2020 he was messaging me, and since I became a free agent back then, he was inviting me to join NEAR as a product manager everything Ethereum related. Back then there were two projects. One is the Rainbow Bridge, and another one was just an idea of launching an EVM solution on top of NEAR to make sure that there is a compatibility, there is a backwards compatibility with the Blockchain technologies. So that idea started inside of NEAR. But pretty quickly, as I released both of the projects, we understood that it makes a lot of sense to spin off Aurora as a separate entity, to keep teams smaller, make the movement more lean and adaptable and faster. And anyway, in Blockchain is everything about decentralization, so why not? More CEOs means more people to whom you are able to ask questions and kind of have this attitude of speaking to the CEO. So that decision was made, and we still are in a very good relations, very good partnership. It’s just we are operating independently.
Matt Zahab
Interesting. Totally makes sense there. So you guys went to school together?
Alex Shevchenko
Yeah. Illia was just one year younger than me, but we bumped into each other on all of the different math and computer science Olympians.
Matt Zahab
Interesting. And were you guys into crypto back in the day when you were in school together? Like, was this on your mind?
Alex Shevchenko
I’m not that young. Sorry. There was no crypto when I was going to school. Yeah, I discovered crypto again after my PhD only. So it’s ten years after school in 15, and Illia was joining space, as far as I understand, around 18, because in 18, he was messaging me and saying, hey, Alex, it appears that you’re in crypto. And now I am, too. Let’s reconnect. And this is what was happening.
Matt Zahab
And it was a match made in heaven after that. So before we get into the weeds in regards to Aurora, give me the elevator pitch. Let me and the listeners know what exactly you and the team do at Aurora. And then we’ll get into the nitty gritty.
Alex Shevchenko
So Aurora Labs is the technology company. We are developing technology solutions on the different verticals inside of the blockchain stuff. Our main customer or our main place, where we are mainly deploying our technology is Aurora ecosystem. Right? And inside of the Aurora ecosystem, we are responsible for the different the core tech or the protocol. We are responsible for the official bridge that is launched. But besides that, we are developing also some additional things that Aurora DAO is requesting us to develop. Besides that. In our set of products is a product that we just launched three months ago. It is called Aurora Cloud. And this is actually not a single product, but a set of products that is serving businesses to quicker and simpler onboard to the blockchain technology.
Matt Zahab
Interesting. So that’s what aurora? Because I saw obviously doing prep for the show here. I saw Aurora Cloud and you guys have been getting a bunch of PR and buzz on Twitter about that. And when you hear Aurora Cloud you’re like, is it a cloud service? What exactly is it? So Aurora Cloud helps developers get onboarded into the ecosystem.
Alex Shevchenko
Yeah. And the reason why it is called Aurora Cloud is pretty simple. It looks and feels like an AWS. But with the decentralized computing, right? Instead of renting centralized compute, you’re getting a decentralized compute, right? So we are taking care of the actual servers. In our case, these are blockchain networks. We are taking care of additional add ons that are working on top of these servers. We have KYC AML add on, we have Protection add on. We also taken care about the connectivity. We do have a bridge that can connect to NEAR and to Ethereum. We also taken care of the interconnectivity in between these networks. Right? And we are also taking care of the user onboarding into this solution. You can think of this like a browser or something in the blockchain space. They say it’s a crypto wallet. So actually this week we are going to launch Aurora Pass officially. And this is a Web2 focused crypto wallet that is going to work only with Aurora ecosystem. It doesn’t have per transaction fees. It doesn’t have all of the complicated aspects of the blockchain inside of it. It is just a simple application similar to Apple Wallet, when you just need to take a look at your phone and then the transaction is approved and signed and it just goes to the blockchain and then somebody there is paid for the execution of this transaction.
Matt Zahab
So it’s literally exactly what you said. It’s almost like an Apple Wallet. It’s a Web2 wallet. None of the nitty gritty technical stuff, none of the crazy crypto native lingo and verbiage and all that. Anyone who does not know about crypto can download it, fund it and use it to purchase and transact with things.
Alex Shevchenko
Even no need to fund it, right? So we’re trying to change the way how things are working in crypto space. And I give you just a very quick and simple example. When you’re using YouTube, the only thing that you see is Google’s business model with YouTube, you are either watching Ads or paying $5 to Google every month. You don’t pay to every single provider that Google is using for it, but they have content and delivery network, they have Cloudflare or something similar to protect from the attacks and cache information and stuff like that. There are tons of services that are used underneath YouTube, but you are not paying to every single of them. That’s why we believe that product is a prime thing, right? So it means that the product must be figuring out the business model, while the blockchain, being a low level tech, must be concealed and hidden from the user, and especially blockchain’s business model, which is per transaction fees. So instead of pushing blockchain business model towards the end user, what we are doing is we are given an option for any products that are launching on top of Aurora Stack to pay for the user transactions. And that’s it. It works without any changes. This technology is quite similar to the account abstraction that many people are discussing right now in the Ethereum community. Well, for Aurora account abstraction is not an abstraction already for two years, and this thing is working in our ecosystem.
Matt Zahab
Got you. Interesting. Let’s jump into NEAR for a second. Because you guys are obviously closely intertwined with NEAR. I feel like at the end of 2021, NEAR was incredibly I mean, I’m still bullish on NEAR. Full disclosure, I do have a small bag of NEAR. I think it’s a great blockchain. And I remember in 2021, Alex at the very end, probably Q4, it was so trendy, was so hot. I felt like everyone was either like grab NEAR grab ATOM both these ecosystems have a lot of room to grow. Tons of upside, very high ceiling. Besides you knowing the founder or CEO of NEAR or whatever his name might be, my apologies, I should know that. Why did you guys choose to partner with NEAR above blockchains?
Alex Shevchenko
So, as I said, we started inside of NEAR. But in case I would be starting Aurora as a separate project today, I would probably work on top of NEAR blockchain anyway. And the reason for this is that NEAR just fits very well in what we are building. The core piece of NEAR for me is the horizontal scalability through Sharding model. Right? This is the setup that is capable of delivering any performance that is requested by the applications that are running on top of it. In case we need to onboard Visa somewhere, then NEAR is the only blockchain where this can potentially happen. Right? And the reason why this is happening is just because of the approach to the Smart Contracts and approach to the runtime. So NEAR omitted one of the core principles of the blockchains that have been developed before. And this is the principle of synchronicity of the cross contract call and synchronicity of the Transaction Execution. EVM itself is a very simple virtual machine. So simple that we probably can teach children in school how to write Smart Contracts for Ethereum. Maybe Solidity is not the best language, maybe some other languages can be developed for such a purpose. But the virtual machine is super simple. NEAR’s runtime is much closer to the real world and what Web2 developers are experiencing, they do have asynchronous executions. Things might be done in parallel and you need to allow for this. And this is actually the thing that allows the whole computing world to grow, right? We don’t have mainframes where all of the internet is running. Instead we have thousands and millions of computers everywhere that are running some specific services. This is the path that NEAR has chosen. And because of this, I believe this is a proper scalability direction. And since our solution is a convenient solution that gives an opportunity for businesses to use all of the stack that was developed before, what we are doing actually is like we are swapping the engine of the previous proof of work Ethereum’s now proof of stake that is not scalable. We are swapping it into NEAR’s more scalable kind of engine and settlement layer. So that’s the core advantage of the NEAR protocol for us.
Matt Zahab
Totally makes sense. Another really good article that you guys have on your website is the difference between EVM gas and NEAR gas on Aurora and how obviously the Aurora EVM gas and NEAR gas are related, the gas limits and how engine optimizations are saving a just stupid amount of money for users and devs. I’d love if you could jump into sort of the differences, the pros and cons in regards to EVM gas versus NEAR gas on Aurora.
Alex Shevchenko
So this topic is quite technical, but to put it simple for people who are into the space, probably you have heard of L2 solutions and the idea of L2 is that transactions are executed elsewhere and then the result and state change is committed to the blockchain. So from time to time L2s are committing information onto the main net. And usually it results into that there is some gas that is consumed inside of an L2, but the actual payment is happening at the moment when L2 sequencer or validator is committing information to the Ethereum blockchain and then there is an actual payment. With Aurora, something similar is happening with a simple distinction that we are not bundling transactions together instead we are settling every single Aurora transaction on top of NEAR blockchain. So it means that for every single transaction there is a gas that is calculated inside of Aurora. But then once it is settled on NEAR blockchain, there is NEAR gas that is associated with it. Aurora is not installing its own limits on the amount of gas that is available for a single transaction. However, during the settlement, NEAR protocol is dictating the limits for these transaction gas or the size of transaction or the amount of computation in each transaction. So this particular article is about this interesting detail. It is more or less the similar thing that is happening in L2s.
Matt Zahab
Very cool. Alex, were gonna take a quick break and give a massive shout out to our sponsor of the show and longtime friends of cryptonews.com, and that is PrimeXBT. Absolutely incredible team. These guys and gals have developed a robust trading system for both beginners and professional traders. It doesn’t matter if you’re a rookie or a vet, you can easily design, customize your layouts and widgets to best fit your trading style. PrimeXBT is also running an exclusive promotion for listeners of the Cryptonews Podcast. After making your first deposit, 50% of that deposit will be credited to your account as a bonus that can be used as additional collateral to open positions. The promo code is CRYPTONEWS50. That’s CRYPTONEWS50 all one word to receive 50% of your deposit credited to your trading account. Again, that is CRYPTONEWS50 all one word to receive 50% of your deposit credited to your trading account. And now back to the show with Alex. Alex, I want to talk about the crazy amount of TVL total value locked that you guys currently have in regards to the NEAR Foundation. You are building the biggest L2 on NEAR and almost half, I believe it is half of NEARs TVL comes from Aurora. That is a crazy accomplishment. How did you guys get to that level? Because that’s pretty bananas. That’s pretty crazy.
Alex Shevchenko
Well, I believe this is just a natural thing, and I can tell you that for a pretty long period of time during the bull market, aurora TVL was higher, was massively higher than NEAR TVL. There were time when Aurora TVL was ten times higher than NEAR TVL. The core reason for this is quite simple. It’s just people, they do understand the flow of Ethereum blockchain. They work with MetaMask, they know how to work with it, and they are comfortable with continuation of working with MetaMask in case they are switching to another network and Aurora gives this opportunity for them to do. Moreover, for the developers that have been developing solutions for EVM compatible networks, Aurora just presents absolutely the same experience, right? You just change the RPC endpoint, you change the chain ID, and then you’re good to go. You’re able to deploy same contracts. They’re going to work absolutely the same way. And in case the contracts have been audited and were executed perfectly on the previous chains where you deployed, while the same is going to happen on Aurora with NEAR, the onboarding is a little bit more complicated because of this specific separate new asynchronous runtime that NEAR has. The way how wallets and accounts are working in NEAR, they require to have separate software to be operated by. This means that the user must onboard to NEAR wallet or Trustwallet or some additional wallets that are working directly with NEAR. And that’s why it is different. So we have here two major points simpler to onboard applications, simpler to onboard users. Moreover, I can tell you right now that in Aurora ecosystem, I don’t know the most kind of fresh stats here, but at least for a very long period of time, the amount of applications that have been working on Aurora were just higher than the amount of applications that have been working on the native NEAR runtime. And that’s okay. The cool thing of these two runtimes or these separate solutions is that we are not a separated ecosystems, right? Instead we can interact with each other. Instead, we can interoperate. And I’ll give you here just one example. There is a DEX that is working on NEAR. This is the biggest, NEAR native DEX. It is called Ref Finance. And what they do because of the interoperability that exists on NEAR and Aurora within a single transaction of swapping user funds from one token to another. Ref Finance does the analysis of the pools that are available in the Aurora ecosystem and they are splitting the transaction execution into two parts. First part is swapped within the NEAR runtime on Ref Finances pools, and another one is sent to Aurora, swapped in Aurora and then withdrawn from Aurora. And all of this is happening in just a single NEAR transactions. That’s the beauty of the interoperability that we have. And because of this, they are able to achieve a great fees and super low fees because of the aggregation of the liquidity that they are doing.
Matt Zahab
That’s so cool. From the outside looking in, I try to empathize and put my feet in the shoes of some non crypto native folks. And there’s so many incredible things being built on blockchains that aren’t Ethereum, it seems like, you know what I mean? Unless you’re in the weeds, unless you’re in the space, you almost don’t really know what’s going on on all these incredible chains and protocols and foundations and I mean, it’s great to see. I absolutely love to hear this before we get into ETH, because I do want to discuss ETH a little bit. You guys have two solutions and things that are absolutely buzzing right now. One of those is the customized enterprise blockchain solution, which again is paramount to onboarding developers and a very frictionless experience. You need that. There’s no way you’re going to get the big dogs to come and build on your protocol unless the experience is very smooth and frictionless. And the second is Aurora’s native wallet, which we haven’t really touched on a whole lot today. I’d love if you could take a deep dive into both of these and explain some of the use cases for both of them.
Alex Shevchenko
Sure. So, as all of the listeners know, crypto has its up and downs, right? The whole vertical has ups and downs. But one thing is pretty straightforward even during the ups the only thing that we are getting from it is the pump in the valuations of projects and tokens and market caps of the tokens. However, unfortunately we’re failing in acquiring users. The problem with it is so there is no crypto adoption. Actually, I would argue that blockchain vertical is stagnating at the moment. We need to fight for our existence or we are going to extinct. The reason for this is that the majority of things that are happening in crypto are very speculative. There are not a lot of really working and value driven use cases here. However, there are people in the world who figured out the use cases that are bringing value and these are just the majority of Web2 companies, the super majority of Web2 companies. They know how to bring value. Now, there is always difference between blockchain guys and Web2 because we are kind of a little a bit like rebellion in the Web2 world. We are saying, you know, nothing we need to rediscover now the governments we are going to rediscover how you need to govern the companies, how you need to do all of the different things, the monetary policies and so on. But instead of doing this I do believe that there are some good ideas that we have but. Instead of saying hey mom, you know nothing. We need to admit that hey mom, you know something, but I can enhance. We are able to give some additional value to Web2 businesses. But the problem is that Web2 business, even if they are curious about Blockchain, they are not able to sign an agreement with Ethereum. They are not able to predict their costs on Ethereum, whom they should call in case something is not working. That’s a big problem. Blockchain is literally unmanageable for Web2 businesses. From that standpoint, there must be companies who are providing good service, like end to end service for them, starting with a discovery, going through the proof of concepts and getting into the custom development for these companies and using some of our tech. And in case we are going to follow this route, then eventually we are going to get many very successful products on top of our blockchain because it is a product that makes a difference. We are internet generation. Not because of the internet itself, but because of the YouTube, TikTok, Instagram and different online games and so on. It is the product that makes communities. And I also believe that the current communities in Blockchain are very distorted. They are not representative within the ordinary Web2 communities. Which Web2 communities you know? I don’t know, like people who are playing World of Warcraft. They have their forum there. People who are doing hiking, right? Or doing carpentry. Probably there is no community of Volkswagen Auto Group investors. Right? This sounds strange, but there are communities of owners of Volkswagen Tiguan, for example, right? So that’s different. And from my endpoint, we need to grow up. We need to do this shift and we need to understand that Blockchain itself should become a very low level technology that can enable value driven use cases for bigger companies. And at that point we would be able to actually get to the mass adoption.
Matt Zahab
Well said. That’s so true. You sort of got my head spin in there. Another thing I want to touch on is gaming on Aurora. You just mentioned gaming and the different clans and communities and so on and so forth. You guys have really picked up some steam in regards to gaming as well. What’s the key to this? Because every blockchain obviously wants to jump into the gaming space because it very well could be one of the pillars of mass adoption. Gamers have a lot of say. They repost and repurpose a shitload of content as well. Think about streaming. Like all the biggest streamers nowadays are really just playing games. Is huge and I believe that this can really be massive for mass adoption in Blockchain. Why do developers choose to build on Aurora for gaming? I’m seeing tons of games being launched here and I’d love to see it.
Alex Shevchenko
Well, first of all, adoption of a blockchain in the gaming vertical is happening because of a very simple and understandable use case which is user engagement. The more people are engaged, the more time that they spent inside of the game and this time can be converted into the revenues for the gaming companies. This is what we see with the recent transition into the mobile games. And the market of mobile games is outpacing any PC or console games just because everywhere people are with their phones. Which means that in case you’re able to keep their engagement, they can play much more. Now, the reasons why blockchain is enhancing gaming is super simple. In case you own something then you’re kind of more engaged. It’s not only in this application that you see it, but potentially other people on some other platforms are able to see the fact that you are owning something. These can be skins, these can be some specific characters or stuff like that. So different gaming mechanics are discovered. So blockchain enhances user engagement. Right? And the reason why many companies, many gaming companies are coming to Aurora and just recently we concluded in partnership with the top ten gaming publisher that is called Netmarble. This is a Korean company. They are one of the biggest general gaming producers in the world and they are migrating to Aurora. And reasons for this are quite simple. They would like to have more reach to people, they would like to make sure that in future they are not going to hit the wall with the scalability. And what is most important right now is the user onboarding. Because in case, again we’re coming back to this point in case the gamer is distracted with crypto onboarding, meaning that he needs to do KYC, go to Onramp or potentially go to an exchange, buy crypto, move it through bridges to the network, and then from time to time, once in a while, top up your wallet with additional crypto in order to execute transactions. That is going going to be an absolutely horrible experience and it is not going to be worth it. People are just going to drop in the beginning of this journey, not even in the middle. And since Aurora is given this opportunity for the applications to fully pay for the user transactions and make sure that the user doesn’t need to do crypto onboarding in case of Netmarble, they have a crypto wallet that is built inside of their application. Which means that user just need to take a look at it take a look at the application, at the phone and then the transaction is executed. But in case he wants to withdraw from the game and operate his NFT somewhere outside, he’s capable of doing this. So they are going to get the best of two worlds. Continuously engaged user that is staying in the same application on one hand and from the other hand, additional engagement that user gets with Blockchain and NFT and this new cool technology, that is the core reason why many games are coming to Aurora, because this technology is working by default. There is nothing that you need to change in your smart contracts. There are no specific libraries that you need to use. It just works perfectly like magic because of the architecture decisions that were done during the Aurora development.
Matt Zahab
I love that. Alex, you’ve been on fire today. What a treat to have you on. Really appreciate your time here. Any hot takes? Or any forward looking or thinking statements, perhaps. Doesn’t have to be crypto related. Can be health, wealth, happiness, you name it. Some crazy stuff, space AI. But any Alex hot takes or things that are currently getting you very excited present day.
Alex Shevchenko
So I want to say to everybody that there are quite a lot of fight in the blockchain community, especially in the bear market. Ecosystem versus ecosystem. Which ecosystem is better? No, you’re not L2 or you’re an app chain, you’re a VC chain, stuff like that. What I would like to say, that the ultimate technology solutions that must be developed are very far from done. Different ecosystems have different great technologies because they are prioritizing these particular technologies over others. And however, the final goal is somewhere in between all of us. We are just making tons of compromises and trying to understand where to go. For Aurora, the most important is scalability. For L2 space, the thing that is important is the security of the Ethereum network. For Cardano, the most important thing is the verifiability of the smart contracts, right? All of this is super useful in case there is a single solution or a single set of tech or standards that are supporting all of this stuff. So I would encourage everyone, instead of fighting, trying to find a way how we are able to unite and actually work together and make sure that we are moving this technology forward. Because in case we would not be able to do this Web2 corporations are going to take the flag of the self custody of the privacy and security and they are already getting it and they are just going to lead there. And with our nitty gritty details, we would not be able to say to people, hey, Apple doesn’t know anything about privacy and security because they own still all of your data on their chips. And yeah, they can do some kind of additional reviews. But it is the corporation that knows this data and that’s the problem. And yes, I can tell you that all of the Blockchain as Blockchain folks, we really suck at marketing. We are very bad. There are lots of Hectors, Frosters and Scam artists, right? As our friend Gary says in the space. And we really need to change our public image in order to get there. So the only way how I can see Blockchain can get to success is through uniting the ecosystems, uniting towards one big move and bringing Blockchain to the world. So make love, not work.
Matt Zahab
I love that. Alex, what a treat. Really appreciate your time, man. This was a blast and can’t wait to have you on for round two. Before we let you go, can you please let our listeners know where they can find you and Aurora online and on socials.
Alex Shevchenko
For the Aurora official Twitter account. You can find it @auroraisnear. And my personal account is @AlexAuroraDev. Super simple. Yeah, there are quite a lot of different things that you would be able to find on these accounts.
Matt Zahab
Yeah, as always, folks, I will include everything in the show notes. Alex, really appreciate it, man. What an episode. Can’t wait for round two. Until then, wishing you and the team all the best and looking forward to our next chat.
Alex Shevchenko
Thanks, Matt. Stay safe in the bear market.
Matt Zahab
You got it. Folks, what an episode with Alex Shevchenko, CEO of Aurora Labs, dropping knowledge bombs left, right and center. We love to see it. Anything EVMs related, NEAR related, of course, Aurora. And what a nice cap off with Alex’s spiel on uniting Blockchain ecosystems. We absolutely love that. If you guys enjoyed this one, and I hope you did, please do subscribe. It would mean the world to my team and I. Speaking to the team love you guys so much. Thank you for everything. Could not be here with you. Justas my amazing sound editor. Appreciate you as always. And to the listeners, love you guys. keep on staying healthy, wealthy and happy. Bye for now and we’ll talk soon.
